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David Holzman's avatar

Sheesh. These Catholic priests, or whatever they are, sure don't know much about anatomy. Why did the good Lord place the clitoris in an out of the way (of the penis) position if he didn't want men to kiss to give bliss? Why did said good Lord put pheromone producing glands in the anus if not to to create the desire to kiss this "disordered orifice". I could go on, but for all practical purposes I'd be repeating myself.

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Armand Beede's avatar

Chris Andrews: Excellent.

Whew, I am sure glad it is OK to . . . in kilts! Had me worried, especially since Ronald L. Conte, Jr., seems to have The Holy Rat's (i.e., Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict, RIP) take on sex, which evidently the Rat's Brother did not learn from.

If one looks VERY closely at the catechetical interpretation of the learned Ronald L. Conte, Jr., one runs into the teaching of St Alphonsus of Liguori -- whose "Way of the Cross" is, seriously, a fine, almost poetic meditation on Fridays of Lent.

But the good Saint's teaching on this subject suggest the severity of a Lenten Fast! It is quite plain, AHEM, that Mother Church makes the MAN's climax everything (necessary for procreation), whereas the woman's pleasure is . . . by Mother Church's teaching . . . extra; not necessary . . .

Now, of course, St Alphonsus of Liguori was an expert on teaching about marital intimacy and . . . relations because, you know, he was CELIBATE.

So, Alphonsus kind of directs us by a form of remote control in the . . . marital bedroom.

Here is the severe teaching of St Alphonsus of Liguori, at LEAST as presented by the commendably severe Ronald L. Conte, Jr.

Here is where one can read to bask in the severity and self-flagellation of Ronald L. Conte, Jr.:

https://ronconte.com/2019/07/12/which-sexual-acts-are-moral-within-marriage/

https://ronconte.com/my-credentials-as-a-roman-catholic-theologian/

"Saint Alphonsus Liguori asks the same question: “Then, if the husband withdraws after climax, but before the climax of the wife, whether it is possible for her to immediately excite herself with touches so as to climax?” And the answer is the same no matter how climax for the wife is achieved (other than by the natural act).

"Saint Alphonsus cites several authors answering “No”. He agrees with this answer, explaining the reason. First, the climax of the wife is not essential to procreation, as it is for the husband. So her act, in exciting herself with touches after his withdrawal (after natural marital relations has ended) lacks the procreative meaning of sex. Second, the sexual pleasure of the wife, if it is obtained while they are separated, also lacks the unitive meaning of sex.

"Saint Alphonsus: “The reason: because the climax of the wife is not necessary to procreation; also, because this sexual pleasure of the wife, in as much as they are separated, does not occur as one flesh with the husband.” He also says that if this were permitted to wives, it would also be permitted to husbands. In other words, the wife is not under a different rule that the husband.

* Can unnatural sexual acts be used on either spouse as foreplay, without climax, to prepare for natural marital relations?

"No. The end does not justify the means. A good end, preparing for natural marital relations, does not justify the deliberate knowing choice of an intrinsically evil act as the means. And unnatural sexual acts are immoral regardless of whether climax occurs or not. Saint Alphonsus Liguori also teaches this point.

"Saint Alphonsus: “Whether it is a mortal sin for the husband to begin copulating in a disordered [or perverse] orifice, then afterward consummate the act in the proper orifice?” So the question is whether the spouses may begin their sexual activity with an unnatural sexual act, and subsequently consummate the act in the natural manner? The answer is No.

"Saint Alphonsus: “The reason is that this manner of his sexual act (even without climax) is truly sodomy, whether or not it is consummated, just as an act of copulation in the natural orifice of another woman is truly fornication, even if there is no climax.”

"The phrase in parentheses, “even without climax” are the words of the Saint, not my comment."

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